Thursday, August 08, 2013
I am as Catholic as any Catholic is. I wholeheartedly accept all that the Church teaches, and have devoted my life to defending Holy Mother Church (full-time for the last eleven years). No one can tar me as some sort of "liberal" in objecting to this video, or claim that I have "Protestant leftovers" in my belief-system. Don't even try' don't even start.
That said (and it should be utterly unnecessary), the anti-Protestantism [heaven save us from being against the protestant heresy, let us instead be comforting of it] that Voris exhibits here is wicked [with this type of rhetoric to begin any article can we not expect him to put forth that Voris and others not thinking along the lines of Mr. Armstrong are anti-Semites] and dead-set against especially Vatican II [The council that in and of itself defined nothing dogmatically besides that which had been defined prior to the council, the way we approach protestants is not infallible, its an application thing; for more on the authoritative aspects on the council go here]: the ecumenical council that dealt most in-depth with ecumenism and the nature of our relations with Protestant separated brethren: fellow Christians, after all, who are validly baptized, validly and sacramentally married [And invalidly continue to remain outside of the Church at least visibly, please Dave quit with the excuses] (in the case of two baptized lifelong Protestants who are married in a Protestant service) and partake of many other graces [Wrong partake in only actual graces which have the purpose of bringing them to the One Church] and share a great deal in common with us [Well this is subjective isn’t it? We could say the same about universalists couldn’t we].
As a former Protestant [Ah an expert on all things protestant and therefore the infallible teacher on application], I know what was in my heart, what I believed and didn't believe. I don't recognize myself at all in these absurd word-pictures that Voris creates [Lets make more out of some aspects then others]. Nor do, I'm sure, the vast majority of those converts to the Church who used to be Protestants (nor, of course, Protestants themselves)[Very well he doesn’t say it applies to everyone, if anyone is commiting a wrong its you taking his words and proposing them to mean something else]. This is so bad, I submit that it is evidence enough that Voris should never again publicly talk about Protestantism (arguably or perhaps not even Catholicism, either, if he understands ecumenism so poorly as this)[In all charity your grudge with Mr. Voris must have something deeper to it, perhaps because Mark Shea is a friend? We have a bingo don’t we.].
When Voris talks in this fashion, he is thinking and functioning like a wild-eyed radical Catholic reactionary (my newly-coined term for what I used to call a radtrad) [Why people like Coffin, Shea and you wish to place labels on people im not sure. You probably don’t like it when such reactionaries, as you call them, call you a neo-catholic or an outright modernist. Although I am certainly not against being refered to by others as a radical traditionalist for reasons mentioned here.]. This is not orthodox Catholicism [Well its certainly not Catholicism as per Dave Armstrong, but then again who is Dave Armstrong, and by what authority does he declare anything to begin with?]. Let's take some of the egregious examples from the video [This should be fun!]:
0:45 Are you looking for a reason or demonstration of why the Protestant heresy has been so harmful to the western world, and been the ultimate reason why the entire civilization has come crashing down? Well, all you have to do is listen to Pat Robertson . . .
Where to begin? Good grief! [A drama queen too!] This is as idiotic as almost anything I've ever seen [Really Dave? Come on your bias is showing.], and that is sayin' something, since apologists like myself are always dealing in false ideas and belief-systems [Its not saying anything, this is nothing but showmanship and fools rhetoric to take ones eyes off the actual quote. Your better than this Dave, this is a weak way to start.]. This reminds me of radical Catholic reactionaries (RadCathRs) pretending / engaging in extraordinary sophistry [Which Mr. Armstrong never engages in, never…never ever….ever] and special pleading of trying to blame every ill imaginable in the Church on Vatican II [Got it? Its not really about what Voris says its about creating a false dilemma to rile up his readers, sophistry at its core].
In both cases, it is an extremely ignorant social analysis, that relies on propagandistic [Again which Mr. Armstrong knows nothing of], polemics-driven old wives' tales [Rhetoric to take the eye off the ball], that can be accepted uncritically by those who aren't inclined or equipped to do the serious study required to make such claims in the first place [Like any RadCathRs as he puts it, we are actually knuckle draggers unfamiliar with VII and its obvious greatness and are unjustly calling protestants from their great enlightenment opporutunity where they are] . Protestantism is the ultimate reason, huh? [While it is not perfect, it is meeting people where they are at, in a heretical group so it works for this sample that Voris brings up. That you think its not helpful is a matter of taste that you have overblown into a terrible happenstance.] Nothing else factors in there [Did he say it was the only thing? No of course he did not. He is giving “a reason or demonstration, not the ultimate demonstration or the end all be all. You put words in his mouth and call him anathema for it.] ; our fellow Christians have accomplished such a mighty feat all on their own! [You for you should realize how I can take this one sentence and pull it completely out of context as you have done. For instance, are you saying they did it without the grace of God? How dare you deny Gods grace! Got it now context time] showing in the matter I wrote in a paper dated 2000, in response to RadCathRs, the following cultural observation, that also fits here:
Theological liberalism / secularism / atheism in particular attacked all forms of Christianity in the 18th and 19th centuries. Protestantism can hardly have been the cause of all that, when it was as vigorously opposed by these forces of darkness as the Catholic Church was. Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, in his "Biglietto" speech upon becoming a Cardinal (12 may 1879), placed atheism and "religion" in opposition to each other, not atheism and Catholicism only:
. . . one cannot charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ [And neither can someone rely on ignorance to guarantee anything as St. Thomas and Ven. Pius IX taught], and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers [Seperated brothers indeed, and we accept them not because they are protestants or for the falshoods they profess, but because they are made in the image of God and profess some Catholic truths]. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. (3) [Boy if people spoke like this and approached the SSPX with such charity I would be amazed (not being SSPX associated myself though. But more to the pointits not just a matter that Protestants are are imperfect communion, that’s along the lines of the SSPX, more that they are not in communion. Orthodox, SSPX, Old Catholics, these are different and should be treated differently then protestants, don’t like it then take it up with Cardinal Ratzinger in his affirmation that was booed by the protestants because finally we didn’t delve into ambiguity to make people feel better].
all who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ [footnote cites Council of Florence, Session 8, from the year 1439]; they therefore have a right to be called Christians [A right to be called Christians? Really? What are rights for? Come on. Rights are given to do what is just according to Gods will, abilities is another thing.] , and with good reason are accepted as brothers [Though separated, make it clear] by the children of the Catholic Church. (3)
The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. In ways that vary according to the conditions of each Church or community, these liturgical actions most certainly can truly engender a life of grace, and, one must say, can aptly give access to the communion of salvation. [Can, got that, no guarantee, and its not because of the heresies they believe and profess but the Catholic truths that they hold to that are actual graces leading them to the one Church.] (3)
Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments for our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ [Actual Grace] and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ [Which has a purpose of?], sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. (4)
bond of brotherhood existing among all Christians [But not to forget that that bond has been severed by those who revolted separating themselves from the true vine.]. (5)
All this, and all Voris can say about our Protestant brethren in Christ is that the entire group is a "heresy" that has "been the ultimate reason why the entire civilization has come crashing down"? [You see Dave you cant just appeal to VII to make your point because as Cardinal Kasper said the texts are ambiguous at points, with compromised formulas, and no binding authority to boot.]
I don't think so. He either accepts Vatican II as magisterial Catholic teaching or he does not [False setup, if Vatican II thought anything de fide then show us. Go back to the link I gave you above. It’s a valid council, but it only provides pastoral approaches, not actual teachings that bind anyone, other than presumably their own consciences.]. This rhetoric highly suggests that he does not [You put words into his mouth here, you take one sentence and thinks it’s a doctrinal statement, have you missed the Mic’d Up Episode and the “A conversation with” episodes with Louie Vorrechio from CNS. This is bearing false witness, and it is best you stop now and repent.]: that he lines his bird and rabbit cages with pages ripped out of the Vatican II documents that he seemingly despises [More rhetoric…please.]. If he accepts Trent, he must also accept Vatican II [He does as a valid ecumenical council and all that comes with it, but it seems you misunderstand the weighting of whats in the documents.], which according to Pope Benedict XVI in his pre-pontificate interview, The Ratzinger Report, "is upheld by the same authority as Vatican I and the Council of Trent, namely, the Pope and the College of Bishops in communion with him." [This is correct, but what else did Cardinal Ratzinger say about the council? You pick and choose what you want heard Dave. For instance here. Now is he against the council, no yet you accuse Voris of the same crap which you don’t point out the key players there held] He continued:
To defend the true tradition of the Church today means to defend the Council [One can defend the council while realizing that not every document carries the same weight, nor the same doctrinal authority to begin with. I defend the council, even the sedevacantist Fr. Cekeda defended the council, it’s a matter of asking the Vatican to finally give some definitive understanding of what authority the documents carry and how to reconcile them with the tradition as a whole as we are told to do and willingly do so but ask how].
I have also documented that the term "separated brethren" preceded Vatican II by 68 years: going back to Pope Leo XIII. [So where does Voris say its wrong to call them separated bretheran? In talks with sedevantists I have often been told its wrong to call protestants and orthodox separated bretheren, even Christian to begin with, but not by traditionalist Catholics. It’s a matter of symantics. Mr. Armstrong wants to focus on them being bretheren, and that’s all and good but traditionalists, while acknowledging their filial bond, make it clear that they are separated from Christs Body and are called to be in His One Holy Catholic and apostolic church.]
We make our choice. It's with the pope [All popes including the preconcilliar ones?] and Vatican II (including ecumenism [So long as it is in line with the traditions of the Church we agree]), or with Voris and against pope, council, and ecumenism [Again creating a false dicodomy and bearing false witness against your neighbor]. I will always follow the pope and Holy Mother Church: not someone who opposes them (as Martin Luther did) [IE: Voris is nearly Luther, he might be Catholic but leaning as a heretic according to the magestarial teachings of Dave Armstrong]. Everyone always knows where I stand . . . How about you? [I stand with Holy Mother Church Pre and post conciliar giving full obedience to the Holy Fathers and the ordinary magestrium recognizing that not every pronouncement carries with it the same weight as others do. And am willing to ask the question of how we as faithful Catholics can understand the council in the light of the whole tradition and I willingly do so, just asking how the magestarium reconciles confusing things. As Neuman said a thousand difficulties doesn’t make a doubt, I have no doubt it doesn’t teach error, I have a difficulty in understanding how to reconcile VII with everything else.]
1:15 . . . the 700 Club: the flagship show of a televangelism empire Robinson constructed around himself . . .
This requires no further comment in its manifest humorous irony . . . [This blog, the flagship site of Dave Armstrongs work, which he constructed around himself. What goes around comes around. Just as “Life is Worth Living” was constructed around the personality of Fulton Sheen, so too all apostolates have a character of the person who is responsible for them.]
1:32 . . . Robertson, in typical Protestant fashion (meaning, an answer made up in thin air, based on nothing other than his own feelings and opinions and misreading of Sacred Scripture) . . .
The asinine stereotyping and prejudice here is its own refutation. Any Protestant, former Protestant, and even almost all folks who have never been Protestant, but know Protestants or have read Protestant literature, instantly know how outrageous this is. He doesn't even qualify it by saying "some Protestants [Playing symantics here again. He gives a qualification using the word “typical”. Now this might now be sufficient in the mind of Mr. Armstrong or any Protestant, or former protestant out there, but the qualification is there.] . . . " No, for the "black-and-white" Voris, this is "typical Protestant" behavior. It's classic prejudice and bigotry. [How many calumnies are we up to Dave, how many more times will you make assumsions before asking for clarification from the speaker himself who in his regular talks gives all the qualifications and further context to his words, but in a Vortex which being a short attention grabber doesn’t carry with it the intention of delving into great detail on every aspect. Perhaps you should get a subscription before pretending to know what his views are.]
4:43 . . . and this is why, forty plus years later, abortion is still going strong: the Protestant poison of birth control, that huge numbers of Catholics have unfortunately consumed as well . . .
More ultra-simplistic stereotyping. [Dave it’s a Vortex. Again its not a talk, but a short quick assessment that is developed in his other talks that you have never seen. You condemn him without asking for the context that he willingly gives when you go deeper.] Voris himself notes how Protestantism uniformly rejected contraception until the Anglicans first allowed it in 1930. Both Martin Lutherand John Calvin strongly spoke out against it as murder, as I have documented [And we are glad they maintained the Catholic truth as long as they did on the matter.]. It obviously originated from outside of any strain of Christianity [Considering that Christianity is the Catholic Faith and they as protestants are Christians in that they maintain certain Catholic truths it is fair to say that those within the Chrisitan distrinction had a had to play in the matter. If you were familiar with his work you would realize that he is speaking about authority and rejection of it that leads to error, which is the same thing that Tim Staples presents in his new video yet gets no blow back from Dave Armstrong for.]. The contraceptive anti-child mentality came from ancient pagan Greek and Roman culture (hence, the Church fathers spoke out against it). Later, it was seen in occultic and heretical circles; then at long last in the 18th-century so-called "Enlightenment" leading directly to the modernist / liberal rejection of orthodox theology and outright skepticism and atheism. [Hense, again if you were familiar with Voris you would realize he is giving a time period, namely the protestant revolt and what followed (IE: the rejection of authority) as a way for people in the protestant community to see that continutity of their faith is incoherent. If you were to ask him that these other examples are not applicable he would be on your side, but again it’s a vortex, not an hour long oration with detailed outlines. Dave instead of critiquing the vortex why not ask Voris himself who answers phones at his apostolate for further context?]
These modernist strains continuing into the early 20th century clearly influenced the Anglicans (who were already markedly liberal in theology). Then the final blow came in the 1960s with the sexual revolution (again, not inherent in classical Protestantism, but coming from outside of it, hearkening back to pagan sexual license)[Yet the pagans weren’t around parading it, and actively promoting it to the protestants. They, protestant pastors and leaders made decsions that their followers accepted regardless. Better yet ask the people who accepted it if they did so based on Pagan reasoning, or their own personal decisions]. How is all that to be construed as "Protestant"? [In a final approach in that it was a decision by those who represent the protestant position, and who adhere to protestant beliefs, regardless of that pagans or occultasts believed, that actively decided to make it ok on their own authority, rejecting rightful authority again, thereby rejecting more Catholic truth leading them farther and farther away from the Church and Christianity which is Catholic.]
My friend Michael Forrest, commenting on this, wrote:
The bishops didn't have the knowledge or fortitude to stand. Catholics led the way on "the pill" and when presented with "Peter's" teaching rejected it [We agree, the worst thing in the world is a Bad Catholic]. That's obviously not the fault of Protestants who do not have Peter [Yet before the pill they still rejected the teaching that they had held onto that was somewhat of a bond among all Christians. If they are ignorant of what the church is and choose to forgo learning it and remain ignorant don’t think they are invincible, they have a free will to accept rightful authority or reject it, just as Luther and Calvin did]. If anything, I would say that Catholics are most to blame for society embracing contraception [Yet our teaching hasn’t changed, so blaming the sinner for the actions of others forgoes the fact that the others had the same ability to accept or reject the decsions made.]. We should have known better. We had the teaching. We had Peter. We had the One True Church. We didn't care. [So did Luther and Calvin, so whethers the apologia for them?]
6:56 If you listen closely to Protestantism, you won't have to listen long, before you discover that sooner or later, it pulls you away from our blessed Lord and His truth.
Wow. I merely need to appeal to the statements above from Vatican II, which are diametrically opposed and contrary to these. I grew and flourished in Protestant evangelical circles, and learned much of what I believe now [Which are protestant truths or Catholic Truths? Begging the question Dave. If someone steals a television from a store and you catch a very informative show on that television that leads to a lucrative career do you necessarily credit the thief that brought you the TV? Its an indirect action, not the evil of the action itself that brings life and that indirect action in your case is the Catholic Truths you were presented with and that lead you to the Church, not the protestant group that spoke the Catholic truths.]. Meanwhile, millions have languished in Catholic parishes where liberals hold sway, as Voris himself has often talked about [And rightfully]. It's impossible (and well, plain dumb and stupid) to paint such a simplistic, black-and-white scenario. [Again it’s a vortex not a talk. You can write as much as you want on your blog without cost besides your time, it costs money to produce and edit videos then post them. Context is had when delving deeper in his work, which is true for all things theology, read Dietric Von Hildabrand for example. We are constantly told that Von Balthazar is not heretical in his views that greater context is needed before such declarations, can I not ask the same of you in regards to Mr. Voris?]
Make your choice. With high and tragic irony, Voris disses [subjective wording, speaking truth to error is another way to put it, but doesn’t fit his rant.] and belittles Protestants for rejecting the Catholic Church and system, yet he turns around and thumbs his nose at that same system, by rejecting Vatican II [Another lie Dave, what are we at now] where he selectively chooses what he will accept and not accept (the "pick-and-choose" mentality of the liberal / modernist / dissident, and also of the Protestant rule of faith, private judgment) [Does Bishop Schinder reject Vatican II? How about Cardinal Ratzinger for that matter in his critisisms of the council? When did asking for clarifications become heretical? When did asking the Vatican to show us how to reconcile ambiguous texts with the whole tradition of the church become heresy and rejecting the council. False distincitions Mr. Armstrong create the division in the church].
I am planning on putting his along with other takes on a Youtube video soon. I want to be clear I hold no animosity toward Mr. Armstrong and encourage people to visit his website here for apologetics. Yet I would ask people to seek greater context from the person themselves when going about disagreeing with quick statements. I consider myself an orthodox Catholic, who accepts all the councils and goes about seeing them all in the light of the tradition and giving them the authority that they claim to hold. I dont hate the Missal of Paul VI, but neither do I hold it as being theologically as acceptable as the Old rite which is essentially the same as it was in the 3rd century which is when they were able to start documenting it (not necessarily the start). Traditinalists are not the enemy, they are indeed proders and demanding, but they are not the enemies. Lets not turn canons on each other without knowing the others context.