Showing posts with label vatican ii. Show all posts
Showing posts with label vatican ii. Show all posts

Monday, October 6, 2014

Fr. Hunwicke: Do Vatican II enthusiasts really care about the council?

Saw this today and found it both funny and sad

Father Etiam Vaticanior 
I wrote not long ago about Fr Nominis Obliviscor; presumably his often-asserted devotion to Vatican II is what prevents him from preaching in August. While travelling North to visit a Daughter, we stopped off for an overnight break and I experienced a clergyman even more apparently totally committed to Vatican II than dear old Obliviscor. Not only did this gentleman, on the first Sunday in September, fail to preach a homily; he also omitted the Creed (and he appeared to have mislaid his chasuble). Needless to say, despite the GIRM, he also used the pseudo-Hippolytan Eucharistic Prayer II at a Sunday Mass. 
Not that this meant that we got out of Church any earlier, Which troubled my digestive tract because I had spotted an Italian Restaurant offering Lobster Thermidor. Time saved by omitting Homily and Creed was consumed by innumerable hymns (including, of course, Make me a Channel). And after the Acclamation following the Consecration, the congregation sang something metrical rather than one of the legal responses (which made the Therefore at the start of the Anamnesis completely meaningless). And after the Peace there was a long sentimental-sounding chant in which the only word I could hear and recognise was Shalom. Not being familiar with any of this stuff, or knowing the words of the formulae concerned, I found participatio actuosa totally impossible. I have not felt so marginalised and alienated by any Christian worship for many years.

Read the rest HERE

+JMJ+

Friday, October 3, 2014

Reading Francis through Pope St. John XXIII

As I was reading Roberto de Mattei's work "The Second Vatican Council: An Untold Story" I came across the following passage about John XXIII's attitude during his pontificate and it struck me just how similar it is to the current Franciscan Pontificate.  The allusions are obvious and I find them profound.  Do enjoy!
Buy the book here

On February 9, 1963, John XXIII received in an audience lasting more than an hour and a half Father Roberto Tucci a Neapolitan Jesuit in his forties, who since 1959 had been editor of Civilta Cattolica. the pope appears to be decisively aligned against the curial culture, and when he remarks that curia members “have a petty, restricted mentality, because they have never been outside of Tome, outside of their village,” the allusion to Cardinal Ottaviani is evident. It is worth reproducing a long passage from Father Tucci’s diary, because it offers an assessment of the council made by John XXIII just a few months before his death:This conversation, recorded by Father Tucci in his diary, is revealing:

“He told me that Civilta Cattolica now seems to him to be on the right track, more so than in the past, although he did not specify what his criticisms were with regard to the past.
He spoke to me about his relations with the separated brethren, which he characterized as based on good will united with prudence and without illusions: nothing is gained by pressing them with talk of return, even though it is true that that is the only way; in the case of Fisher, who insists on speaking to him about reunion and unity, he gives him to understand that he does not quite follow, and then he changes the subject to imitation of Christ and similar topics, and the Anglican prelate goes away contented; it was the same yesterday with the Methodist prelate; with regard to the latter, he told me: “Yesterday they once again declared me a saint!”

As an example of the good fruits produced by his attitude of simplicity and kindness, he told me confidentially the news about the release from prison of the Metropolitan of the Ukrainians: Bishop Willebrands has gone to Russia to pick him up; he is expected din Rome by evening and he will reside for now in the monastery at Grottaferrata. He kept emphasizing that certain nationalistic attitudes, the type found among the Ukrainian bishops at the council, especially Bishop Bucko, can only cause annoyance; on the contrary, good relations with Khrushchev have brought about a more relaxed situation; he does not think that Khrushchev is as cynical as some say; he has his own serious internal difficulties and is animated by good intentions, even though he remains firmly committed to principles altogether opposed to ours. He told me that after the exchange of messages and other courtesies, an American journalist, who had an occasion to speak with Khrushchev at length, had brought him personal Christmas greetings from him and that he, by the same channel, had sent his own greetings back, adding to them a request to free the Metropolitan. The journalist had told about hearing from Khrushchev how he had been raised in a religious family, but later had become quite alienated from religion because he wanted to work for renewal in society, and he had seen that the “popes” [slang for clergy] in Russia were all slaves of the tsarist regime and of the rich. With regard to improving official relations with the Holy See, the Holy Father had sent a response that there were difficulties with that provided that the fundamental rights of the human person were recognized and hence also the right to religious liberty. From what I understood of the matter, Kennedy was not uninvolved; the Holly Father said that he understood his caution about not appearing to be too favorable to the Catholic Church, so as not to lose the support of the protestants; nevertheless members of his family had come to see the pope, etc.

As far as the council was concerned, he said that he was completely satisfied: the council had really got into its work only in recent weeks when it began to understand the implications of the September message and of his inaugural address on October 11. He complained however, about the fact that the Holy Office thought that it was in charge; he said that he had to set them straight; while praising the good dispositions of Cardinal Ottaviani and Archbishop Parente and others, he said that they still had not understood that certain ways of acting could by no means meet with his approval. He strongly criticized Father Tromp, who thinks that he needs to teach the bishops and who expresses himself in a way that shows little respect for them; he also observed that unfortunately some eminent council fathers, because they once taught theology, think that they have to turn the council documents into manuals of theology; he reaffirmed that it is not a matter of settling doctrinal questions, since it does not seem to him that there are any disputed questions today that must solved in order to avoid grave harm to the faith of the Church. He forcefully critiqued all the intervention of Archbishop Vagnozzi, a fine young man, but one whose impertinence he had already noticed, since the former was out of place both because of his substance of what he said and above all because of his manner of saying it; he knew, moreover, that in this case it was not the archbishops won work [literally: it was not flour from his own sack], since it had been prepared for him.

 During the first session he had preferred not to intervene in the debates, so as to allow the fathers freedom to discuss and the opportunity to find the right path on their own; on the other hand, he, not having the necessary competence in the various matters, might be more of a disturbance than a help with any intervention of his own. The bishops needed to learn on their own – and they had done so.

As for his recent letter to the bishops, he appeared to be proud of having written the whole thing by himself; when asked whether he had meant to fault the liturgical movement when he talked about novae praedicationes [new sermons], etc., he said that was entirely absent from his mind; he was thinking about the good sisters who want to spread new forms of prayer, and about devotions to Our Lady of this place or that, which people were trying to extend to the whole Church, and the like. With regard to the curial culture, he noted that they have a petty, restricted mentality, because they have never been outside of Rome, outside of their ‘village’: they cannot manage to see Church matters in a truly universal perspective.


He then asked me whether I had any remarks or observations about the pope’s attitude, about the things people are saying. (He realizes that, even in my community, there will be some who do not agree with his approach!) I spoke then the need for abundant information on the council so as to help journalists, and so as not to reinforce the inferiority complex of Catholic publications, etc. He asked me whether Vallainc was doing well or not. I replied that it did not depend on him, but on Archbishop Felici. At that point he observed that Archbishop Felici is a really fine man, though he is somewhat limited in his thinking; he knows Latin very well and also Italian, but that is more or less all; it is true that he did not put himself in that position, since he had been proposed by Tardini without him knowing anything about it; he is obedient and a good worker. But the pope rescued him (by adding the five undersecretaries), and archbishop Felici knows this and is grateful. Understand the problem but doesn’t get into details. Just says that in order to contain the bad press it would be necessary for Manzini at L’Osservatore Romano to expose and give the lie to malicious interpretations and the like as soon as they occur; in that way everyone who is in error will fall into that category. The Pope has not spoken to Manzini.”

Wednesday, September 24, 2014

Ten Days of Davies: Vatican II talks (Part II)

Vatican II - Part 3 of 4 - The Protestant Connection
Progressives were eager to work together with Protestants. This meant that Protestant observers of the Council often played not only a role but even a determining role in its sessions. Michael Davies discusses the Protestants in question, their Catholic allies, and the specific influences they had. Taken from: My End is My Beginning: The Analogy of Contemporary Christianity





Vatican II - Part 4 of 4 - The Liturgical Revolution
Michael Davies is most known for his work on the liturgical revolution. Here, he summarizes how the movement for liturgical reform transmuted into the monster that it became, and then used Vatican II, the organs established to effect the reforms of Vatican II, and the "spirit of the Council" to create the new liturgy. Taken from: My End is My Beginning: The Analogy of Contemporary Christianity

 

 +JMJ+

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

Ten Days of Davies: New Davies Talks on Vatican II (Part I)

Below you will find Parts One and Two (of four) of Michael's talks on the council given at the  Von Hildebrand Institute in 2001.

The First video talks about how the "liberals" conspired before and during the council to bring it under their control.  Keep the Faith describes the talk as follows:

"The program for Vatican II was quite different from that which was examined and ultimately promulgated once the Council began. Why is this the case? Michael Davies shows that an organized group of progressives took advantage of the lack of organization of traditionalists and pushed the Council down an unexpected direction."



The Second Video talks about what Pope Benedict Called the Virtual Council, that is how the media manipulated the council to their own ends with help from within and without.  Keep the Faith describes the talk as follows:

"Progressives understood the use of the media in a way in which their opponents did not. Moreover, media men were often on exactly the same wavelength as the progressives anyway. This, Michael Davies explains, allowed the two groups together to give shape to the Council's development."


Tomorrows post will contain Part 3 and Part 4 of the series.  Please enjoy the talks but also support this wonderful apostolate "Keep the Faith"

+JMJ+

Monday, September 22, 2014

Ten Days of Davies: Michael gets into a debate on William Buckley's Firing Line

Source
I think I have posted a link on this in the past but now I will provide additional things for you to chew on.

The Program was Firing Line, with host William F. Buckley (Founder of the National Review).
Mr. Buckley was a practicing Catholic until he died and one of the shows he invited Mr. Davies, Fr. Malachi Martin and Fr. Joseph Champlin, who worked for the USCCB at the time as a liturgical adviser, to discuss the struggle to maintain Catholic orthodoxy.  The debate was heated to say the least.  Fr. Martin was not a designated debater but an expert questioner brought in by Firing Line to propose questions more formal in nature.

Below I have posted a clip from the program on line as well as the transcript and a link to rent or buy the episode.  the following is an interesting part of the exchange:



Mr. Buckley: Well, lets pursue the question of whether there is a dilution implicit in the new form of the Mass over against the Tridentine Mass. As you know, the Protestants have been arguing very heatedly on the various revisions of the King James Bible with one segment insisting that there is a theological dilution. Do you believe that there is? 
 Fr. Champlin: Do you? 
 Mr. Buckley: In the new order? 
 Fr. Champlin: I don’t think so. Let’s go back to one of the earlier things that Mr. Davies mentioned about the dilution of the sacrifice notion and the priesthood and so on. When the new missal – the Vatican II document, or the new missal of Paul VI – came out, this was one of the criticisms. In the introduction to the ritual – or the introduction to the general instruction of the missal -  very clear notion of how the sacrifice of the Mass is present in the new order of Mass, how the priesthood is very clearly there, how the priesthood the layperson different in essence from the priesthood of the ordained person is still present there. The whole notion of the sense of the sacred is in fact present, and I think the kind of sense that he said at the beginning that the new Mass takes away from that – I don’t think it’s a dilution. I think it tries to bring that notion of the transcendent and then communitarian and bringing together; and the kind of abuses that he was talking about are abuses, but not the teaching of Vatican II.  I don’t see the new Mass as a dilution of what we had. 
 Mr. Bukley: Do you have a comment on that , Mr. Davies? 
 Mr. Davies: I certainly do.  As Father says, correctly, in the new missal there’s an introduction – there’s a thing probably that most people watching wouldn’t know called the “general instruction” to the new Roman missal. Well, when it came out --  First of all, you just had the new order of the Mass --  you didn’t have a complete missal with all the readings – you just had the new order of Mass which had this general instruction with all the articles explaining it. Some of theses articles, they were just totally protestant. For instance, they explained the nature of the Mass, Article 7 – they said it’s the coming together of the people under the presidency of a priest which is a  -- There’s nothing formally heretical in it, but its totally acceptable to Protestants. Article 48 said that during the Mass that the Last Supper was made present. That is heretical, actually. Well, when the missal which Father mentions – with this Forward, that came out in 1970, and the Forward he has mentioned – the premium, in Latin – as he said, it states every doctrine of the Council of Tent absolutely orthodox – ii in an orthodox manner – and says this is what the new Mass is intended to enshrine; but I think this Forward is the most damning indictment of the new Mass ever published – the fact that within a year of its publication, they had to put an introduction to it, saying, “Oh, yes, well, it really is Catholic after all.  It really is meant to show this.” It’s a far more demining indictment than anything traditionalists have written about it… “

Click here for the link to the full video and transcript

Tuesday, October 29, 2013

Cardinal Pell on Fellay and the Council

I've seen Cardinal Pell's third party response to Bp. Fellay of the SSPX and I think he is just doing his job as one of the leaders of the Church in supporting the Holy Father.

The interesting aspect of the interview was the following to me:

Q.  So people like Fellay have completely misread Pope Francis?
A.  Yes, it is a gigantic misreading!  In actual fact, the Lefebvrists – many of them – have misread the situation for decades.   It was to Benedict’s great credit that he tried to reconcile with them, but they didn’t respond. Now the Church today accepts the Second Vatican Council. You don’t have to accept every jot and tittle of it, but it is part of Church’s life now, there’s no way around that

A couple notes,
He states that many of them (in the SSPX, using the term Lefebvrists is going overboard when they never accepted it to begin with) have misread the situation.  Well like Fr. Z said this is being vague... might we say ambiguous so as to not really touch on the issues that are contended.  Like I have said before there is a great resistance by many in the heirarchy to see to it that the SSPX is never accredited with providing direction for the church moving forward.  They may say dumb things but I know of bishops in good standing that have said worse and led the many into greater scandal then even Williamson.
The bolded part of the statement is also important because it states the obvious that novelties are still contested legitamatly by many in good standing with the Church, but there is such a reluctance to really look at the fruits of the council and address the problems not just of interpretation but of what was written in and of itself.  It should be noted its not a liberal problem but also a conservative one with the likes of George Weigle pandering to the "Evangelical Catholic" crowd determined to promote the ecumanism of indifference at nearly any cost (my observation...restrictions apply).
He might have well ended with something like:
"Must protect the legacy of the concilliar church and her pontiffs, must...Must...MUST!!!!  Will anyone take him up on the offer to really address the tittles of contension...we'll see.

source


Friday, September 27, 2013

The virtual council as Benedict put it




I'm still enamored by the statement Pope Emeritus Benedict made before abdicating from the thrown of Peter, where he drew on the Second Vatican Council and how it was hijacked by the media and people within the hierarchyThe virtual council as Benedict put it in cahoots with them.

Im happy to say that I uploaded a video on Youtube which was a talk given by the one and only Michael Davies  on this very topic years before our previous Holy Father brought this up.

Enjoy! (it is a little long by the way, but very interesting).  Please say an Ave for the repose of his soul,



Sunday, July 7, 2013

Rorate on the SSPX and what went down last April

Wow...this makes me quite a bit more comfortable with what Francis has been doing in shaking things up a little...still disappointed with his liturgical emancipation garbage, but it will take another 2-3 generations before VII is recognized as being a legitamite council, but one in which the things taught held no real solid authority outside of the things already defined.  Many will say that I am over reacting, that I just refuse development of the faith, but this is a false assertion.  Things like Religious Liberty and the new ecumenical attitude where we dont raise Pius XII to the high altars because the Jews are not comfortable even after he single handidly saved more people of the Jewish race then anyone else in the world, or the placing of being nice to the Orthodox even to the extent of not condemning Communism outright (as what occured for the Russian Orthodox to attend VII).  In the End Her immaculate Heart will triumph, but this could have been easier.  Let us pray for those complicit in trying to build the faith on their own whims.

Pray for the Holy Father for he will face more pressure then we can even imagine...And of course pray for the SSPX that they would not become cold hearted to the Vatican prelates.


+JMJ+

+Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for US!+





Friday, May 17, 2013

Catholic world Report and First Things promoting error: Ecumenism without truth

So I am again going to point out another false attempt by the modernists (condemned by pontiffs like Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII specifically) to create unity for unities sake and all in the spirit of Vatican II, saying the documents allow this but doesnt quote anything and appeals to revolutionary ideas and novelties to condone their standing and opinions on the matter.  Enjoy! [My comments]


CWR: Most Catholics probably envision future unity between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church as a re-installment of one world Church organization with the pope of Rome at the top of the governing pyramid. A look at history shows that such a model never existed, so what could Orthodox-Catholic communion actually look like if it were achieved? A renewal of Eucharistic communion? The possibility of an eighth ecumenical council? A resolution for the dating of Pascha/Easter?



[Considering that Peter was the earthly head of the church with the Keys to loose and bind the heavens and the Earth and acted on this commission throughout scripture and the sacred history of the Church, yeah I do expect that there is a singular head, a visible sign of unity which Peter is.  To say that such a model never existed where the Bishop of Rome didn’t in fact hold primacy over all the other Bishops is to blatantly disregard history, one need only read Clement, Leo and the Early councils and Popes and see that Popes where not merely first among equals, but the rock of the faith.  The difference rests in the application of the office not in the actual understanding of the office, that is solemly defined by Vatican One under infallible decree, to deny that Peter is the visable head of the church is not merely to be sismatic, but to be heretical because as Catholics we must profess all the decrees handed down.  The Orthodox might claim it wasn’t solemnly proclaimed when they split so they might say they are only systematic, but denying truth is to be in error, thus hertetical.  Heaven knows what we don’t need now is another ecumenical council when the vaugness, and yes Mr. Mira the Vatican II documents are vague if they weren’t they wouldn’t require a strict hermanutic of continuity (see trent and Vatican I documents then compare).  The dating of the Pascal feast is another issue, see the link below for information on this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05228a.htm]

Taft: What it would look like is not a “reunion” with them “returning to Rome,” to which they never belonged anyway [considering that there is One Church with Peter as its head, and this is clearly seen in scripture and in the History of the Church from the beginning this is a false statement] ; nor us being incorporated by them, since we are all ancient apostolic “Sister Churches” with a valid episcopate and priesthood and the full panoply of sacraments needed to minister salvation to our respective faithful [Hmmm so having valid episcopates and sacraments is the only thing needed to be in the church; wow I guess we should tell the Polish National Church and the Old Catholic Church they really never left since they have valid sacraments], as is proclaimed in the renewed Catholic ecclesiology since Vatican II [where does Vatican II call for a new ecclesiology?  And where does Vatican II state that it is to be held by the faithful as de fide?  This is more spirit of Vatican II garbage where the power play is to create a situation where the pontiff is merely a symbol, but not different then anyother Bishop in substance, thereby denying Vatican I.  Pope Paul VI is said to have been made aware of this collegial power grab and quashed it, feeling deeply saddened by the actions of the other Bishops] and enshrined in numerous papal documents from Paul VI on [so disregard anything before Paul VI, even if it is infallible teaching.  I mean really! First things what are you?  CWR what are you?  Modernists giving lip service to a hermanutic of continuity, but practicing the hermanutic of rupture], as well as in the wonderful Catechism of the Catholic Church. [But not the Catechism of Trent, because that’s not friendly enough] So we just need to restore our [our, wait we broke communion with them?  I don’t seem to remember this, we have Peter they don’t.  They continue to fall into error allowing divorce, contraception and other innovations from the top of their episcapates, but we need to be in communion with those perpetuating error? Please] broken communion and the rest of the problems you mention can be addressed one by one and resolved by common accord.
. . .
CWR: How could the papal claims of Rome be modified in a way that would be both acceptable to the Orthodox Churches and faithful to the tradition of the Catholic Church? Do you think the jurisdiction issue really is a hang-up for the Orthodox since they also practice cross-jurisdiction throughout Western Europe, the Americas, Australia, and East Asia?

Taft: The new Catholic “Sister Churches” ecclesiology describes not only how the Catholic Church views the Orthodox Churches. It also represents a startling revolution [Yippie a novelty, spirit of Vatican II!  Lord please when will the modernists be exiled from the Holy Church.  He is admitting a Heremantic of Rupture here!  Wake up people and see shes under attack by those within!] in how the Catholic Church views itself: we are no longer the only kid on the block [so we are not the one true faith in which the gates of Hell would not prevail?  Again these “sister churches” as he likes to call them are all ok with error.  We are literally the only kid on the block that has upheld truth in the face of mounting evil.  Playing semantic games like the whole church or the only kid on the block is creating a new novelty against the faith and denies the no salvation outside the Church dogma, and yes I know the nuance but still they will only be saved by the one church not being a sister church which is confusing the structure of the early Christians before the great schism], the whole Church of Christ, but one Sister Church among others. Previously, the Catholic Church saw itself as the original one and only true Church of Christ from which all other Christians had separated for one reason or another in the course of history, and Catholics held, simplistically, that the solution to divided Christendom consisted in all other Christians returning to Rome’s maternal bosom [And where in Vatican II does it deny this fact?  I will admit that Bishops have become cowardly especially with the Russian Orthodox playing semantic games that they would protestalatize, but how is this actually church teaching?  Writing a treaty is not a teaching, but an indult, to not act on truth, but not to deny it either].

Vatican II, with an assist from those Council Fathers with a less naïve Disney-World view of their own Church’s past, managed to put aside this historically ludicrous, self-centered, self-congratulatory perception of reality [This is such a stink bomb its incomprehensible that CWR and First things are making these statements public when they will cause confusion and scandle.  Again where is this idea in Vatican II?  Saying that the fullness of Truth subsists in the Catholic Church necessarily means that all other bodies are lacking to some degree or another and must come into communion with the fullness]. In doing so they had a strong assist from the Council Fathers of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church whose concrete experience of the realities of the Christian East made them spokesmen and defenders of that reality [Where?  Where is this novelty introduced and does it even carry with it a de fide statement?  Vatican II is a valid ecumenical council and where it restates Catholic truth it is indeed infallible, but where novelties are introduced without a statement defining it to be held by all the faithful as can be seen in previous councils then it is a matter of being ambiguous and not actual de fide teaching. Such statements require a heremanutic of continuity to be in line with the whole tradition of the Church].



In this context I would recommend the excellent new book by Robert Louis Wilken, The First Thousand Years: A Global History of Christianity (New Haven & London: Yale U. Press 2012). Professor Wilken, a convert to Catholicism who is a recognized expert on Early Christianity and its history and literature, shows that Early Christianity developed not out of some Roman cradle but as a federation of local Churches, Western and Eastern, each one under the authority of a chief hierarch who would come to be called Archbishop, Pope, Patriarch, or Catholicos, each with its own independent governing synod and polity, all of them initially in communion with one another until the vicissitudes of history led to lasting divisions. [The Clement letter itself denies this possibility, just because a professor writes a book doesn’t make it correct].


+JMJ+

Friday, April 26, 2013

Sedevacantism


Another day, another dollar, another chance to post on a topic of concern

Todays topic: Sedevacantists

Recently I reread the book Orthodoxy by the one and only GK Chesterton and came across a number of relevant passages that could be related to this topic but in an indirect manner.  First that it is always dangerous for the human mind to reckon up the human mind.

So what is sedevacantism?  It is a sect of Christianity that claims to be the true Catholic faith.  In general sedevacantists hold that the Chair of Peter is currently vacant, usually stating that it has been so since Pope Pius XII died.  Their focal point rests in their interpretation of Vatican II teaching heresy when it comes down to it.  However they do pass around the theory that a Cardinal Siri had actually been elected by the sacred conclave but was forced by the modernists to reject the office for fear of his life.  Therefore they say John XXIII was elected by the modernists but not actually by the conclave.  Therefore the council and all the things that followed the council including the ordinary form of the liturgy and the Popes from John XXIII on are all invalid and heretical.

It is my opinion that most sedevacantists come at any problem in a rather protestant manner.  Generally the will quote a Pope, or even an anti-pope (to them) to confirm their theories, pulling quotes out of their context and creating a super dogma out of texts that hold no such designation.  For instance you will often hear it referenced that Pope Pius V in Quo Primum condemned any change of the sacred liturgy by any individual.  This is however a faulty notion and is taken up by EWTN staff member Jeffrey Mirus here.   Dr. Robert Sungenis has also taken on sedevacantists and their arguments at his website Catholic International as well as in debates with sedevacantists here. 

Some might say that I am not being fair to these people, but I do believe I am.  I don’t judge their heart just their actions, and their actions speak volumes.  Often they will say we should look at the fruits of the post council church and judge it based on this.  So they want us to take a subjective approach to the issue.  Fine what are the fruits the church shows following VII?  In general the number of Catholics in the world have doubled, relations with people of good will in different religions or lack thereof have improved and scripture studies and theological understanding have developed exponentially. 
What are the fruits of sedevacantism?  Perhaps we can say the best thing that comes from this group is an ability to reference obscure popes and their zeal for tradition, at least what they think tradition is.  They have grown in numbers since their inception, I guess we could even say exponentially since a jump from 0 to 1 is an infinite jump in itself so congrats!

Bottom line what can you do with conspiratists that see trouble everywhere they look, well youll have to read Orthodoxy for that, the second chapter that is.

God Bless!

+JMJ+